tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post1130519675784276333..comments2024-03-28T10:16:44.231-07:00Comments on Cliff Mass Weather Blog: Why are so many trees falling?Cliff Mass Weather Bloghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13948649423540350788noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-51309546809538300572013-01-02T16:09:57.832-08:002013-01-02T16:09:57.832-08:00I live in Plain.
Most of the trees did not start ...I live in Plain.<br /><br />Most of the trees did not start falling until the very heavy snow began falling Monday afternoon into Monday night..<br /><br />granted, alot of the snow fell before that, but the trees were not too bad until Monday PM.<br /><br />anyway, I was out in the mess trying to get home Monday night and while the moon was out in Leavenworth, about 5 miles south of Plain, we hit the heavy snow all at once...I looked at radar, and followed it all evening on my iphone... this is when a small by persistent PSCZ set up over the area. <br /><br />I think it's a combination of factors many listed above, but I think the 'icing on the cake' was the intense PSCZ that dumped roughly 10-15" in about 6 hrs on top of the 1-2 ft already on the trees.toddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18377065326135497205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-33557030564348986172012-12-30T17:48:09.579-08:002012-12-30T17:48:09.579-08:00The same superglue snow has been around here in Sp...The same superglue snow has been around here in Spokane. The total accum is about average for this point in the season, and it's come gradually, with no huge storms. But each new fall sticks firmly to branches and wires, and the snow is 'glutinous' for lack of a better word. It pulls like dough instead of crumbling like bread.Polistrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09594313902571823549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-37888478820299717112012-12-29T22:56:14.120-08:002012-12-29T22:56:14.120-08:00Lots of trees were down in the Fraser Canyon where...Lots of trees were down in the Fraser Canyon where there is an usual amount of snow.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06372208818347034610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-34869172565974344072012-12-29T17:59:45.754-08:002012-12-29T17:59:45.754-08:00Cliff,
Nice little analysis. The relevant questio...Cliff,<br /> Nice little analysis. The relevant question however is WHY do the trees fall towards the roads and not towards the forest. Please give that some thought and post your results.<br /><br />snowing in Toledo Ohio...excellent snow removal here in NW Ohio. Lot's of salt! mjgrotahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10752674147894791628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-65940271696181621002012-12-29T14:39:19.314-08:002012-12-29T14:39:19.314-08:00Consider soil composition as the main factor.
Ou...Consider soil composition as the main factor. <br /><br />Our great NW coniferous forests grow mostly on Glacial Till, a mixture of varying soils plus water-worn riverbed gravels. The gravels and the soil can remain as homogeneous even when saturated, but past a point, the excess water acts to free the soils from the rounded gravel, causing those stones act like ball-bearings. The soil then has very little internal cohesion left, and the root ball of the tree fails it's job of anchoring the whole organism.<br /><br />I've watched about every film clip available of these tree-blocked highways, for the past several weeks, and I have invariably seen entire trees down, not tree-tops, in the film offered.<br /><br />NOAA could sponsor some research into the transition point of the soils from just a damp but cohesive amalgam to the failed-cohesion part, with an eye towards issuing tree-fall alerts when models show the right combinations of water, temperatures and snow-loading. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there hasn't already been a lot of that research done. After all, trans-mountain road-building has been done in these parts for a full century now, and the science to discover the super-saturation point of glacial till is not something we would need computers to discover in the laboratory.Rivrdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02685083857476811667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-3758280857209043972012-12-29T09:25:26.116-08:002012-12-29T09:25:26.116-08:00I would add one more fact that played a part in th...I would add one more fact that played a part in this mystery at least here at Lake Wenatchee. The majority of trees that fell were Ponderosa pine and most broke off near the top. Pines branching structure isn't designed to shed snow as readily as fir and alpine species whose branches droop more readily. Pine also is not as strong as fir and is more brittle thus being subject to breaking under stress.<br />What's interesting is how all these factors can come together and create such historical events. Power's back on now so Happy New Year! Dave Richardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00555343644722371793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-36477574373354914612012-12-29T09:07:18.823-08:002012-12-29T09:07:18.823-08:00There's likely a Fire Ecology component here a...There's likely a Fire Ecology component here as well, equally complex as the moisture/temperature factors: As Chris and Bill have offered here, tree damage from beetles and rot cannot be overestimated. Trees growing too close together become increasingly susceptible to bug larvae and especially, laminated root rot. Resultant tissue damage weakens the tree above ground (trunk snaps in icy/windy conditions) and below ground (damaged roots can no longer anchor tree, causing uprooting). But historically, periodic naturally occurring fires provided healthy thinning.Carl Burgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01712293533901381643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-24846543373439959652012-12-29T05:39:45.335-08:002012-12-29T05:39:45.335-08:00I have a cabin in Plain just south of Lake Wenatch...I have a cabin in Plain just south of Lake Wenatchee which is east of Highway 2 through Tumwater Canyon and ground zero for all this mess. We had many more tree fall issues than Highway 2 and the roads have only just officially opened up, although there has been Local Access Only for a while now.<br /><br />What happened was not just the sticky wet snow but that was indeed the first event: <br /><br />We had about 12-20 inches of snow in the space of a couple of days and that snow was sticky and wet. But then it cooled down, as it does at night, and FROZE to the trees as a compact snow/ice mix. Then it snowed more, gradually and not a lot, and that just added more weight. <br /><br />Additionally, it was not sunny really at all for about a week. On Christmas eve there was a nice sunny day that was warmer than expected (40F) which melted and shed a large amount of of the snow/ice. After that the situation was much improved but Chelan County mentioned in one update that trees shaded from the sun were still loaded with snow, but by that time a lot of the danger trees were already down either by the force of nature of the hard work of the road crews in removing the leaners.<br /><br />A final and important factor noted by a WSDOT worker or spokesperson is that the ground is not frozen yet which means that trees have less of an anchor. A lot of the trees that fell were on slopes. Snowgirl mentioned this in the comments too.<br /><br />I can't thank enough Chelan County PUD, Chelan County Public Works, and all the other PUD teams and road works teams that helped. For several days there were over 100 people on the job almost day and night. This was over the Christmas holidays where these workers could have been at home with their families. The power situation is much better now but the fiber infrastructure (yes, fiber to the home in rural Chelan County!) is still being rebuilt.<br /><br />BTW, the trees out in Plain/Lake Wenatchee are a mix of Pine and Fir. I don't recall seeing a cedar out there. <br /><br />I'm heading out to my cabin today (Saturday) to assess any damage. <br />winohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06268161256315419932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-806125825482112152012-12-28T21:07:27.239-08:002012-12-28T21:07:27.239-08:00We had lots of trees down on the Clear Creek Trail...We had lots of trees down on the Clear Creek Trail in Silverdale. Sticky snow plus lots of rain and a beaver dam that has created quite a marsh softening up the trees all add up.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13742905742181959851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-59783985652091276662012-12-28T20:10:19.704-08:002012-12-28T20:10:19.704-08:00The question that needs to be answered is the tree...The question that needs to be answered is the tree fall as great away from the road in those locations and thus more systemic or is it mainly along to road in which case other causes may be implicated?Leifhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09610156568686353981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-35484027928721057282012-12-28T19:44:22.795-08:002012-12-28T19:44:22.795-08:00I guess my hypothesis that it was lost Oregon Beav...I guess my hypothesis that it was lost Oregon Beavers looking for a home isn't correct.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06376925208642097467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-20072496324054224822012-12-28T19:34:46.770-08:002012-12-28T19:34:46.770-08:00Thanks for this. We were travelling from Seattle ...Thanks for this. We were travelling from Seattle back home to Penticton (BC) and had to take I-90 rather than Hwy 2, and I was curious about what caused the treefalls that closed the road.<br /><br />I really appreciate your blog, I use it in my Weather and Climate class at Okanagan College.Coordinatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09869220771742776449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-30525656110807444222012-12-28T18:53:54.944-08:002012-12-28T18:53:54.944-08:00Could it be we will have no snow this winter on th...Could it be we will have no snow this winter on the Sammamish plateau?Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205752419540502278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-27539372706977739902012-12-28T12:36:51.055-08:002012-12-28T12:36:51.055-08:00SnowGirl's and Mike's comments seems to be...SnowGirl's and Mike's comments seems to be the most plausible explanation. Another factor that is a likely influence is the lack of health of the tress involved. Extensive root rot or other rot from fungal infections can significantly weaken tree structure.<br /><br />Pine beetle infestations mostly occur in lodgepole pine that is found mostly east of the Cascade crest. Other than Leavenworth the fallen trees are on the west side of the crest and most likely Douglas, true firs or red cedar.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15631881972067157660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-89680893641403029552012-12-28T11:09:16.352-08:002012-12-28T11:09:16.352-08:00Holmes, you amaze me!Holmes, you amaze me!Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15369325677310528747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-20571800443340168702012-12-28T11:03:36.534-08:002012-12-28T11:03:36.534-08:00Wow, first off great post. I love the variety on t...Wow, first off great post. I love the variety on this blog.<br /><br />I had some thoughts regarding the issue. I think something else that should be considered is that all three of these areas are not places where the trees are used to having heavy snowloads for long periods of time - we're not seeing this issue at the heavily forested lcoations say at Snoqualmie Pass level or near the Mt Baker Ski Area parking lot. At the Baker location you mentioned it's at about 1400' so snowpack there traditionally is limited and doesn't stay on branches for more than a week at a time, same goes for the Hood Canal location near sea level. In regards to the US-2 location, that area is east of the crest and the trees aren't accustomed to getting the quantity of snow that we've had over the last couple of weeks. Additionally, that area usually gets lighter/drier snowpack like you have mentioned.Lancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14119121675943204095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-50587517823377730772012-12-28T10:06:35.262-08:002012-12-28T10:06:35.262-08:00I think the location you were referring to on the ...I think the location you were referring to on the map is west of Leavenworth, not east.<br />Great blog though!MountainWreaths.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09574374210883430660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-16595264271465060812012-12-28T09:51:42.197-08:002012-12-28T09:51:42.197-08:00Well perhaps Doctor Mass, but rarely does mere ded...Well perhaps Doctor Mass, but rarely does mere deductive science have all the answers. I propound that it is the evil genius of Professor Moriarty that is behind these series of tree falls through the use of his new temperature flattening device. By flooding the lumber market with cheap state timber he can then go long on the overall construction industry thereby reaping tremendous unscrupulous profits to further his nefarious schemes. “Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth.”Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10521417893579493676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-42846506957038301402012-12-28T09:13:14.119-08:002012-12-28T09:13:14.119-08:00Might the amount of rain saturating the soil also ...Might the amount of rain saturating the soil also be a factor? I would think that large amounts of rain soaking the soil before the snowfall might make it easier to uproot the trees.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00912566936711269979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-16371994468533731082012-12-28T08:57:02.155-08:002012-12-28T08:57:02.155-08:00Something else worth pointing out is that above-av...Something else worth pointing out is that above-average rainfall has left the soil saturated, and above-freezing temps have left the soil soft. Trees in super-saturated soil fall over with minimal provocation. Saturated soil + heavy snow loading = trees falling over.SnowGirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12749035156535762236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-22469352298180865752012-12-28T08:29:59.319-08:002012-12-28T08:29:59.319-08:00Cliff, great information.
I can't state enoug...Cliff, great information.<br /><br />I can't state enough how great it is to have you take your personal time to post on this blog. I have a buddy in Denver who is jealous that we have you doing a blog like this in the PNW.<br /><br />Thanks for all the hard work and great information!Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02683851527929195519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-62919283727027269922012-12-28T07:28:30.045-08:002012-12-28T07:28:30.045-08:00Cliff, one thing different this year is that fores...Cliff, one thing different this year is that forests have been stressed by beetle kill for several summers in a row. Hiking east of the crest shows vast swathes of brown conifer trees. They are either dead or dying. Could that be what is bringing the trees down when they are further loaded by heavy wet snow?Chris Burkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17518534777541600347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-20217180242237785962012-12-28T06:47:58.116-08:002012-12-28T06:47:58.116-08:00By jove, I think he's got it! Seriously though...By jove, I think he's got it! Seriously though, nice work.Brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11720344976469415038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-40327446046942749252012-12-28T05:58:06.714-08:002012-12-28T05:58:06.714-08:00I agree, Cliff. The temps have also been stuck in ...I agree, Cliff. The temps have also been stuck in a narrow range in West Seattle, also. So much so, that my 91 year old neighbor complained to me that his outdoor thermometer was broken. He said it was stuck on 40 degrees.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com