tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post1495291198454045575..comments2024-03-27T21:02:08.203-07:00Comments on Cliff Mass Weather Blog: Post Snowstorm Ice: The Winter Scourge of Western WashingtonCliff Mass Weather Bloghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13948649423540350788noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-77788315365925768682019-02-08T18:58:51.753-08:002019-02-08T18:58:51.753-08:00Idk about anywhere else, but Seattle has narrow re...Idk about anywhere else, but Seattle has narrow residential streets. So narrow that only 1 car can drive down it. If someone is getting in or out of their parked car the person driving has to stop. When a street is that narrow, with many cars parked tightly on each side, and the roads are often hills with wet snow or ice...... that leaves ZERO room to slide even the slightestAnna Goodwonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02894279722619857095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-10907277111552849212019-02-07T22:53:49.225-08:002019-02-07T22:53:49.225-08:00It is the platoons of plows, and the will that are...It is the platoons of plows, and the will that are absent. Was in NH during their most recent big snow event. Plenty of wet snow; plenty hills. 24 hr later, not only the major roads but secondary & tertiary. They pretreat, post-treat and plow. The State has the big plow trUcks for the main roads, but everyone w/ a truck or a 4wd seems to own a blade and a hydraulic system to lift n lower it. And folks budget good money for paying for driveways, farmyards, shopping centers, and gravel roads up into little hill towns to be scraped. U get what u are willing to pay for.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12908990599640388551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-62190103342600922102019-02-05T16:03:11.147-08:002019-02-05T16:03:11.147-08:00Yeah, I wanted to say these things as well. I gre...Yeah, I wanted to say these things as well. I grew up in NW Ohio and spent most of my life there or southern Michigan. Powdery, easy to move snow was not particularly common except in the coldest situations. Eight inches of heavy, wet snow was plenty common, and no fun to move even with a snowplow. The further north you went, the more powder you could expect, but you then got the wet stuff earlier and later.<br /><br />The four inches we have here in Everett probably would have given us a snow day back in Toledo, but only one. I won't be surprised if my kids have a third snow day tomorrow.<br /><br />But there definitely is an issue of preparation, though it's a gamble. This is the first significant snow I've seen since we moved here, four winters. Keeping huge stocks of salt/de-icer isn't a good choice when you only get this stuff every few winters. But man I was confused going to the hardware store and seeing barely 3 meters of shelf space (and only the bottom shelf) after living where wven the corner drugstore would have had 3 or 4 tons of rock salt and calcium chloride. (A hardware store would have had 10 tons visible and more in the back!)Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09614249048048902131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-57531741278284148872019-02-05T13:34:49.129-08:002019-02-05T13:34:49.129-08:00For those not familiar with Pittsburgh's terra...For those not familiar with Pittsburgh's terrain and snows, copy and paste this link into your browser. Nostalgic!<br /><br />http://pittsburghskyline.com/content/2013/01/11/pittsburgh-snow-winter-2013/<br />GlacierBakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14691372693124586046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-13043630100571755292019-02-05T13:32:33.523-08:002019-02-05T13:32:33.523-08:00I'm originally from Pittsburgh, PA (been here ...I'm originally from Pittsburgh, PA (been here 45 years) - but I do remember winter snow there collecting all winter, lake effect snow and ice building up in layers we could build igloos on and tunnels under. We'd skate on frozen lakes, and I learning to drive (stop, and restart) on steep Pittsburgh hills every bit as steep as Seattle's worst. Can it be equally treacherous here? Yes, indeed. Our overnight low was 5'F last night here in Glacier, and it's too cold for the snow and ice to melt and clear. As for 4WDs and such, many learn the hard way that "It's not how fast you can go, but how fast you can stop" that matters. Never dumped or ditched (yet), knock on wood.<br /><br />Keep us posted about incoming - much appreciated!!GlacierBakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14691372693124586046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-39135356073943355542019-02-05T12:22:25.381-08:002019-02-05T12:22:25.381-08:00You can not blame the incompetence of the highway ...You can not blame the incompetence of the highway departments on Dr Mass. Bob Triggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01477110366429518001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-53322891571115887632019-02-05T11:55:22.844-08:002019-02-05T11:55:22.844-08:00"...they simply don't understand. In Mic..."...they simply don't understand. In Michigan or whatever, the snow is generally powdery and dry. Easily plowed. And there rarely is much ice." -- This is just wrong. Sure, if the temperature is well below freezing, the snow is powdery. But often, and anywhere, the temperatures are NOT well below freezing and it snows, and inevitably, the snow packs, or melts and refreezes, and ice builds up. This not to mention the nearly annual freezing rain events. Anywhere there's winter, there's ice.<br /><br />"then there are the hills" Certainly that makes things worse here. But there are hills plenty of places, even in northern Michigan, in the northeast and east central US, and anywhere from Montana/Wyoming/Colorado/Utah and west. They get ice, and most of those places manage better, except in regions where it doesn't happen often, say the Carolinas, Tennessee or north Georgia.<br /><br />"experienced local departments of transportation know how to handle this situation." Here, he's right, and that is much of the difference, between Seattle and Michigan or most other places, for example. It's not that transportation folks don't know how to handle it, necessarily, but Seattle and surrounds don't invest in it. They are rarely on top of the forecast, and if an event hits, they can't keep up for lack of personnel and equipment. So we just shut down, and live with dangerous driving conditions until it melts. <br /><br />I really wish the DOT in the various communities in and around Seattle would be more aggressive about treating roads.Wardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02414198550493495245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-61102116733541759662019-02-05T11:51:16.158-08:002019-02-05T11:51:16.158-08:00We need a higher resolution model that focuses on ...We need a higher resolution model that focuses on the effect that the local topography plays. <br /><br />And you would think AI/machine learning would be something you could implement into weather modeling. Ianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00052425147883096468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-52817373920040656422019-02-05T11:44:54.303-08:002019-02-05T11:44:54.303-08:00Any news on this upcoming snow event? Timing, loca...Any news on this upcoming snow event? Timing, location, accumulation?CThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02945194742065084834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-47870448550951760742019-02-05T11:35:51.669-08:002019-02-05T11:35:51.669-08:00When I moved out here in 97 I couldn’t get over th...When I moved out here in 97 I couldn’t get over this weather. Rain? In the dead of winter? And cool in the dead of summer? No mugginess<br /><br /> And what they called a storm. I had a good kick out of that. We have winds like that all the time on the praries. Out here they called a rain/wind event a “storm” That was hilarious to me. Now I’m a local and I call it a storm too. Lolol. Shortyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14118440296634351814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-29100635571676195992019-02-05T11:13:20.852-08:002019-02-05T11:13:20.852-08:00This is a good idea, destroys the road. Studless s...This is a good idea, destroys the road. Studless snow tires are just about as good on ice and way better in wet. Overall, much better and less noise!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07490909930365735791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-9529840285100574512019-02-05T10:56:59.854-08:002019-02-05T10:56:59.854-08:00"before a snow/cold event it is very useful t..."before a snow/cold event it is very useful to pre-treat the roadways with some kind of deicing or anti-icing solution-- or even road salt-- "<br /><br />SDOT hasn't really used de-icing solution in the last couple years; they switched entirely to much cheaper rock salt, which they use egregiously. There are roads in Seattle right now that look like packed snow but are actually bare pavement with a curb-to-curb 1/2" layer of crushed salt.<br /><br />When the freshwater benthic communities in Seattle's creeks collapse due to the salinity spikes, let's be sure and thank Prof. Mass for his contribution. Welcome to the new rust belt.Jonn-Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03526663018827394129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-19527295961157250862019-02-05T10:28:05.248-08:002019-02-05T10:28:05.248-08:00I don't know why you folks are comparing ice s...I don't know why you folks are comparing ice storms (yes, I grew up in Connecticut and we had several giant ones every year) to snowstorms. Yes, freezing rain events are much worse to travel in. If this had been a freezing rain event on Sunday night things would be ten times worse right now.<br /><br />Thing big difference is that snow events always start with wet roads that then freeze up underneath once there is a layer of snow on them. Even in mild-esh CT, plenty of snowstorms start when the surface temp is already below freezing. So you tiny snow drifts blowing along the surface of a road. When the snow gets heavier its easier to plow.<br /><br />Also, big snowstorms back east can generate huge dumps of snow. I've been in DC and Philly on such occasions. With 2 feet of snow, very few people get out of their driveways (yes, I'm sure some of you managed to get out and drive every time and you will tell me about it below). Whereas here, the 2-3, 3-4 inches probably looks manageable in the neighborhoods, but not so once they happen upon the particularly icy sections. THEN some drivers lack of know-how does come into play, as in not keeping momentum going on a steeper hill and not allowing enough distance between the car in front.Phistorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18129494338909913885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-36201772762118782382019-02-05T10:25:41.580-08:002019-02-05T10:25:41.580-08:00NE Ohio lake effect snow can be very soggy. Ice st...NE Ohio lake effect snow can be very soggy. Ice storms hit every year. And the area is on the edge of the Allegheny Plateau. No mountains but plenty of hills. They just have platoons of snowplows and lots and lots of salt, brine, and beet juice for de-icing. Snow removal budgets are a significant portion of the budget Chuckanutterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08871676178620818246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-3954037830102246622019-02-05T09:19:42.718-08:002019-02-05T09:19:42.718-08:00There should be a constitutional amendment to give...There should be a constitutional amendment to give us the right to keep our studded tires!Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15884039803489989396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-77714155996904691022019-02-05T09:13:26.049-08:002019-02-05T09:13:26.049-08:00And now they want to take away our studded tires! ...And now they want to take away our studded tires! Sharon Steinbishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15672948704352878591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-43310006917031175372019-02-05T09:12:56.289-08:002019-02-05T09:12:56.289-08:00Love your blog Cliff but I have to disagree with s...Love your blog Cliff but I have to disagree with some of this one. I was a bicycle messenger in Washington D.C during the mid 90's and saw many an ice storm during that time. The streets of the city and the suburbs could be like ice rinks for days on end, with tree limbs hanging heavy, covered in clear ice.Alistairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11807009738020017890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-3352545008738427752019-02-05T09:06:50.353-08:002019-02-05T09:06:50.353-08:00Wow Dry snow in Michigan? You haven't been to...Wow Dry snow in Michigan? You haven't been to the midwest in Winter. We get Ice storms that bring down power lines and stop lights and it messes up the traffic bad there, but work doesn't care, I've drive in blizzards to work in Michigan. People expect you in because it just happens every year.<br /><br />HOWEVER<br /><br />It is flat there, that's the major difference. Ice here on a hill is very different than Ice in metro Detroit on flat roads.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00670104805228646511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-50564091893663390892019-02-05T07:43:04.476-08:002019-02-05T07:43:04.476-08:00@ Rabbits' Guy,
I grew up in Spokane and well ...@ Rabbits' Guy,<br />I grew up in Spokane and well remember a number of very snowy mid-1960's winters where it was my job to shovel the driveway and then wait for the snowplow to come down our street, usually the next day, and go out and attack the wall of snow with a regular shovel. A snow shovel would not make a dent in that well-compressed snow!<br />It was good exercise out in the cold air. Lt. Lothar Zogghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07491303175134129638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-24874785182496135932019-02-05T06:43:08.585-08:002019-02-05T06:43:08.585-08:00NOAA forecasters are talking about the potential f...NOAA forecasters are talking about the potential for a repeat of Sunday/Monday on Fri/Sat -- except for more snow on the second event. Forecast guidance for Sequim is 12 to 18 inches total on Fri/Sat and we got about 8" out of the last storm. <br /><br />If this happens, I suspect it will be very impactful given the likely amount of ice that may remain from Sunday's storm given what's on the ground now and the current Tue through Fri forecasts. Sounds like the potential for heavy snow falling on black ice to me... at least for the area around the Strait. Lovely.<br /><br />Very interested in your thoughts, Cliff, as this new snow forecast develops.Johnamarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17737399978789523366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-88899651082675507042019-02-05T06:39:37.345-08:002019-02-05T06:39:37.345-08:00Side streets in Ballard are very icy. Any snow th...Side streets in Ballard are very icy. Any snow that was stepped or driven on has left an icy relief track, almost an inverted ice fossil, as the surrounding snow melted/evaporated. Bicycle tracks and dog prints are especially amusing. As a teechur, I have another snow day, time to don the yak traks and explore.<br />Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05406960125967668609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-13837387020875585342019-02-05T06:20:31.853-08:002019-02-05T06:20:31.853-08:00It's not a "Northwest" thing, it'...It's not a "Northwest" thing, it's a Puget Sound/western Washington thing. I grew up in Ellensburg and a few inches definitely was never a big deal. Most of the roads would typically be plowed by the time you got up in the morning. So places like Ellensburg, Leavenworth, Winthrop and Spokane for instance all laugh at a few inches of snow. 🤣Thecatguy93https://www.blogger.com/profile/06460566697745890845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-4915997359846829692019-02-05T00:06:34.359-08:002019-02-05T00:06:34.359-08:00Utter bunk that other cities don't have hills ...Utter bunk that other cities don't have hills or ice. It's a lack of investment in road equipment, and a lack of understanding by drivers.<br /><br />I come from places that could be froze solid in October and thawed out in May.<br /><br />Yes hills do exist outside of Seattle, and people drive on them. Schools generally only close for temperatures being greater than -20f not for snow, as it snows nearly every day in the Lake Superior snowbelt. <br /><br />Oh ice? Try a couple of inches of super chilled rain on sub freezing surfaces... That's a showstopper even for the best equiped community.<br /><br />Just enjoy the change of pace and drive less and cautious.<br /><br />It is not fiscally logical for lowland communities to invest heavily in the equipment needed to effectively deal with our rare snow events.<br /> Organic Farmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08694548750704036717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-56397188491475896072019-02-04T22:02:52.360-08:002019-02-04T22:02:52.360-08:00I live in rural Snohomish County. We got 9 inches....I live in rural Snohomish County. We got 9 inches. Love the snow. But the complaints about the local DOT's seem to have some validity as far as the road conditions go. Very often I see chemical applied to the roads around here, even when there is no snow forecasted, to help prevent black ice due to fog, etc... This year has been different. I have not seen any chemical applied to the roads around here over the last month or so. It was warm in general. I wonder if they got complaisant, maybe budget issues? Blaming the forecasters is stupid. I doubt that the folks who coordinate and deploy sand/chemical/plow trucks are waiting with baited breath to see what Cliff has to say or what King5 has to say. They should have been on top of this at least based on the general NOAA forecasts. Cold temps, and moisture are on the way? Prep the ROADS! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07362679285908384043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-59130071995303329862019-02-04T21:39:51.269-08:002019-02-04T21:39:51.269-08:00The late, great Johnny Carson grew up in the midwe...The late, great Johnny Carson grew up in the midwest. He used to joke that midwest drivers were no better at driving in snow than anyone else, they just weren't afraid to hit things. He said they liked it when they hit something because it meant they had stopped sliding!<br />Westside guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01515889347828936860noreply@blogger.com