tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post1715227690286547750..comments2024-03-28T10:16:44.231-07:00Comments on Cliff Mass Weather Blog: Now is the Time to Fix the Math Meltdown in Seattle Public SchoolsCliff Mass Weather Bloghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13948649423540350788noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-4874403884453038282013-02-18T10:57:29.199-08:002013-02-18T10:57:29.199-08:00Tom Loveless of the Brookings Institute did a nice...Tom Loveless of the Brookings Institute did a nice job of breaking down NAEP and why it points to a failure of reform math. http://www.brookings.edu/research/speeches/2003/02/06education-loveless<br /> <br />Would love to hear Cliff's view on the NAEP all up but even if it is valid, the data does not support a reform math agenda.LouAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10109809854168922670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-27953885509773800532012-08-06T10:51:23.203-07:002012-08-06T10:51:23.203-07:00do you know where you can get non-discovery math i...do you know where you can get non-discovery math instruction for a kid in Seattle? for elementary, middle, and high school levels?<br />thanks.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02179403544495148083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-12081917000876888742012-07-15T08:15:37.997-07:002012-07-15T08:15:37.997-07:00Thanks for the article:)
Bello Jones
www.mforums...Thanks for the article:)<br /><br />Bello Jones<br /><br />www.mforums.orgRyan Clearwaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10516462837997259763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-67657388514363555062012-06-30T09:29:44.080-07:002012-06-30T09:29:44.080-07:00an interesting article posted today on Slate
http...an interesting article posted today on Slate<br /><br />http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2012/06/math_learning_software_and_other_technology_are_hurting_education_.single.htmlseawallrunnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15009064227479438132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-91779376878683815402012-06-29T11:26:37.698-07:002012-06-29T11:26:37.698-07:00My son attends a private school where there is an ...My son attends a private school where there is an even more extreme version of the spiralling, language based math curriculum than the one the Seattle schools uses. The attitude there is conceptual understanding is more important than arithmetic, and they will spend an entire week solving just one problem. Needless to say, we have to supplement outside of school (as do many other students we know) so he can learn to actually calculate. The "success" of these programs has to do more with outside tutoring than what is going on in the classroom. Many educators are not from math or science backrounds and therefore do not appreciate the importance of calculation skills in everyday life. The engineers and scientists I know think this kind of approach to teaching math is extremely ineffective.Notafanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17624582780736328109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-31322172076574730662012-06-26T14:12:48.881-07:002012-06-26T14:12:48.881-07:00I couldn't agreewith you more, Cliff. My wife ...I couldn't agreewith you more, Cliff. My wife teaches in amiddle school with a high proportion of ree/Reduced Lunch students. She uses her old notes and Saxon derived materials as much as possible, though her official curriculum is Discovery Math, and their test scores have increased.<br />I think another factor is, unfortunately, cultural: popular culture does not value math, and many families expect that all their child's education will occur in the classroom alone. It just ain't so.jrjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02249599564720422897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-42696660690678287002012-06-22T22:34:50.770-07:002012-06-22T22:34:50.770-07:00The is no excuse for a parent to say they don'...<i>The is no excuse for a parent to say they don't understand the material. Get out the textbooks and relearn the material before your kids need help. Or take some adult math education to get back up to speed before hand. Talk to teachers and understand what you have to master so you can help teach yor kids.</i><br /><br />With the Everyday Math books, having the books at home will <b>not</b> be a help, even to the parents. The books do <b>not</b> include enough information to learn how to solve the problems without the teacher. They call it Discovery Math because the students are supposed to "discover" a method for working the problems on their own, as if every child were a young Descartes or Newton. Everyday Math has these "family link" letters for the teacher to send home as they start every chapter; they do <b>not</b> include how to do the problems, but they include all the answers to the homework. So you find out if you're doing it wrong, but you won't find out how to do it right. You can see that making the methods a guessing game hurts students from disadvantaged backgrounds the most, whose parents never learned much math, and English as a Second Language students who may not understand the teacher's spoken explanation in class and rely on a friend or family member reading the textbook to help them figure out what's going on.<br /><br />Students from involved, upper-middle-class parents are able to compensate for Discovery Math. They can explain at home whatever the student missed in class. They can tutor their child themselves or get outside tutoring; they can get a different set of books to study at home. Whatever it takes. It's the students from families who can't do that who really suffer.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16260807460417787614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-3899576046670560322012-06-22T18:48:52.089-07:002012-06-22T18:48:52.089-07:00Montessori Educations for everyone... Start young ...Montessori Educations for everyone... Start young too!ViolinJennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05759077191441617306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-85786613778540365292012-06-22T17:34:20.311-07:002012-06-22T17:34:20.311-07:00What do NAEP scores mean? Diane Ravitch, May 14, 2...What do NAEP scores mean? Diane Ravitch, May 14, 2012<br /><br />http://dianeravitch.net/2012/05/14/what-do-naep-scores-mean/E.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17666871307899059049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-30144655356973863432012-06-22T14:44:01.788-07:002012-06-22T14:44:01.788-07:00I wonder how man parents study up alongside their ...I wonder how man parents study up alongside their children so they can be helpful to them? <br /><br />The is no excuse for a parent to say they don't understand the material. Get out the textbooks and relearn the material before your kids need help. Or take some adult math education to get back up to speed before hand. Talk to teachers and understand what you have to master so you can help teach yor kids.<br /><br />I lived in Singapore for a number of years and managed a large group of engineers. Every one of them saved up their vacation time so they could stay home and study with their kids prior to end of year exam time. It was very hard to keep my facility staffed during the weeks before exams. <br /><br />I've never heard of parents making that comitment in the US, although I'm sure it does happen. But my impression was that the Singapore kids excelled at math and science because of a huge commitment by their parents to their children's education. They didn't just leave it to the schools. In fact, educating their children was more important than their own recreation...by far.<br /><br />So I suspect the differences in performance berween countries have a lot more to do with culture than text books. <br /><br />John MarshallJohn Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08271037292493818827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-8273301804487740972012-06-22T13:33:54.917-07:002012-06-22T13:33:54.917-07:00More support for your argument: http://www.psychol...More support for your argument: http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/video/math-creating-a-division.htmlSue Frantzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02419069861619538490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-65182323019372466432012-06-22T13:11:08.880-07:002012-06-22T13:11:08.880-07:00Math education definitely need reform. Thanks for...Math education definitely need reform. Thanks for keeping the spotlight on this important issue. But can you comment on the huge storm in Duluth? http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/event/article/id/234958/ they are saying things like "this may never happen again".FDVGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465783418351629787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-75224606209745791272012-06-22T11:49:27.020-07:002012-06-22T11:49:27.020-07:00Suggesting they have never been taught is off the ...Suggesting they have never been taught is off the mark. How about the notion that they were never learned. There is a key difference. Teachers in Seattle and across the country bust their a$$es to teach this material, districts spend millions on new curricula, there are untold number of hours of homework assigned, but in the end the students have to actually do the work.<br /><br />Math requires an ability to sit and think for a while and to work out the problems. People in the US, and this includes their overworked parents and the students themselves, have an attention span of about 1 minute -- hardly enough time to figure out these problems.<br /><br />Keep in mind too that people of your generation also don't know enough math to even help their own kids!<br /><br />I don't recall in the history books a lot of "math-ins" during the 1960's and 70's.Teacher Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16846356906946665000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-64074832823932724132012-06-22T11:36:24.384-07:002012-06-22T11:36:24.384-07:00ClassroomWindow (with which I am affiliated) is co...ClassroomWindow (with which I am affiliated) is conducting a national survey on math text effectiveness. Preliminary data on effectiveness ratings from K-8 teachers have Everyday Math rated the lowest overall and one of the two lowest for ELL and Free/Reduced Lunch students. <br /><br />Happy to share the results when they are finalized -- let me know if you are interested.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />JohnJohn Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02895369291708170942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-31387375301109540372012-06-22T07:50:30.773-07:002012-06-22T07:50:30.773-07:00Cliff: Can you give more info on Gates's influ...Cliff: Can you give more info on Gates's influence in math education K-12? I would like to follow it up. Thanks, DonFixed Carbonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06321707907871138659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-51000248066941045862012-06-22T07:18:39.644-07:002012-06-22T07:18:39.644-07:00E
Did it ever occur to you that high school are f...E<br /><br />Did it ever occur to you that high school are flunking fewer kids, not because they are doing better, but because standards are dropping? <br /><br />I guess you're not familiar with grade inflation, a problem at various levels of education.Superhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06208358506896071732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-10021219263917795502012-06-22T07:00:43.240-07:002012-06-22T07:00:43.240-07:00Cliff - I am very excited about the Canadian non-p...Cliff - I am very excited about the Canadian non-profit JUMP math which so far, has an excellent curriculum through 8th grade. I've been using the program as a private tutor, and am very impressed. Researched by Harvard, teaches in a logical, in depth, sequential manner that really builds a deep understanding of concepts. http://jumpmath1.orgMelinda Pongrey, MSEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03820854205598732458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-42591060373758563762012-06-22T06:41:21.056-07:002012-06-22T06:41:21.056-07:00Jon,
You had a classroom of 8 or 9 kids and was ...Jon,<br /> You had a classroom of 8 or 9 kids and was able to adapt and supplement everyday math...no wonder they are doing ok. Yours is not the normal situation. In any reasonable test, Everyday Math has failed and cursory look at it shows how much it is missing...cliffCliff Mass Weather Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13948649423540350788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-86545871635404704352012-06-22T06:37:51.753-07:002012-06-22T06:37:51.753-07:00E,
Those of us at the college level have seen a...E,<br /> Those of us at the college level have seen a progressive decline in math skills over the past decades, so the results you cite can not be correct. Furthermore, there are all types of problems with NAEP that I will not review here...including the fact that many districts game it by deciding who to give it to and who to give extra time to....cliffCliff Mass Weather Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13948649423540350788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-59789844839942396802012-06-22T05:14:32.858-07:002012-06-22T05:14:32.858-07:00Cliff,
Thanks for taking an interest in the educ...Cliff, <br /><br />Thanks for taking an interest in the education of the next American generation.<br /><br />But, data shows that your generation had less educational achievement than the kids in school today.<br /><br />According to Diane Ravitch of NYU:<br /><br />1. The National Assessment of Education Progress (NAEP) has been given since the 1960's and is the only valid measure of American education. Test scores have never been higher in math and reading (among whites, blacks & hispanics).<br /><br />2. High School graduation rates are at their highest levels ever.<br /><br />3. American public schools in low poverty areas, using international assessments, perform better than schools in Finland, Japan, Korea & Singapore.<br /><br />4. No other advanced country in the world, even those with the best educational systems, has privatized their public schools (take note Bill & Melinda).<br /><br />All this is achieved while 20% of US children are living in poverty (and this number is rising). This is the highest rate of child poverty among advanced nations.<br /><br /><br />Cliff, if the current generation is so good at math why can't they calculate that US wages have fallen by 7% since 1970 while productivity has doubled (meaning wages should have also doubled)?<br /><br />One would think that this generation of economists would be well versed at math, yet, the entire economics profession missed a decade-long housing bubble that resulted in the largest financial collapse of their careers - duh!<br /><br />The current generation teaching in America's business schools all were unable to run a simple cash flow to determine that Enron's business plan was a fiction.<br /><br />Your generation has the lowest voter turnout among the world's 40 leading democracies. Among todays industrialized nations, your generation has the highest rate of: divorce, adult obesity (which kids are emulating), maternal mortality, infant mortality, child poverty and prison incapacitation. America has a high rate of murders and armed robbery. Home ownership is average, while, wealth and inequality in America are extreme compared to other advanced nations. Life expectancy in America is only 15th in the world. (see Jerry Mander)E.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17666871307899059049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-70615193827213408182012-06-21T23:28:50.360-07:002012-06-21T23:28:50.360-07:00Let's not forget part of the problem- those wh...Let's not forget part of the problem- those who teach elementary because they don't really like math. <br /><br />Middle schools inherit kids who have no idea what place value is or how to use it when doing basic calculations. (I know, I've taught middle school for 25 years.)<br /><br />A good teacher can use anything to teach- even a lousy text like CMP. A good text can only go so far in helping a bad teacher.<br /><br />The only hope is that Seattle will choose a text that forces teachers to be trained the right way. Something like Singapore will give the teachers the needed knowledge and insights into the skills and concepts and beauty of mathematics.<br /><br />Just my two cents.snapdragonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10052978249380402838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-82942141500312400062012-06-21T21:42:02.897-07:002012-06-21T21:42:02.897-07:00As a K-8 teacher w/experience from the other coast...As a K-8 teacher w/experience from the other coast, I respectfully disagree that Everyday Math, etc. is the reason for this failure. I used Everyday Math w/students grades 1 through 6 at my little school and saw the progression unfold the way it is meant to. Algebra is indirectly taught as early as Grade 2. Fractions, powers of ten, basic algebra, etc. are taught by grade 6. Because I had a small classroom of generally 8 or 9 students spanning 6 or so grade levels, work was totally individualized. Kids who picked up concepts quickly could move ahead quickly as I would have them skip doing, say 4 of the same type of problem I knew they had previously mastered, and had them just do 1 or 2 to keep things fresh. I also skipped entire pages of what would just be review for these kids to keep them challenged. For the kids who needed more time to understand things, I had them do most every problem in the workbooks. <br /><br />Kids who are turned off w/school are unlikely to do well in math, especially if it's not made relevant. And it's hard to make algebra and higher branches of math relevant. Some kids won't mind that it's not relevant, but many will. <br /><br />Kids who learn via rote methods may master the steps to long division, for instance. But they won't learn how to apply it in a real world problem where division is just one step. Kids need to learn how to think mathematically and that's what Everyday Math, taught well, can do. Rote methods are often why kids get turned off to school. We don't share the same cultural values many Asian countries have, either, and kids won't work tirelessly on boring problems because that's what society/their parents/whatever want them to do.<br /><br />Khan Academy is a useful tool for many kids, but certainly not the answer. There's the slight issue, too, of cognitive issues caused by TV screens, computer monitors, etc. on younger brains.<br /><br />My kids will both do well at math (my 6 y.o. is already "above grade level") because I don't and won't limit talking math, doing math and playing math to school. We'll do it when something comes up in our day to day life, just as we always have. It's this way for everything. <br /><br />Everyday Math taught well, Khan Academy sprinkled in, and engaged parenting will work well.Jon Wescotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03715886237426409390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-90614751713993556852012-06-21T13:37:59.436-07:002012-06-21T13:37:59.436-07:00I agree that Discovery Math has been completely di...I agree that Discovery Math has been completely discredited. The best that can be said is that for the brightest kids it's not any worse.<br /><br />The books are part of the problem.<br /><br />Another problem in Seattle and many other districts is social promotion. You can't teach algebra to kids who haven't mastered arithmetic yet. You can't teach analytic geometry to kids who haven't mastered algebra yet. Failing kids is taken as an admission of failure for the teacher. The schools desperately need some way for kids who are behind to learn at their level, instead of being dumped lost into material they aren't ready for.<br /><br />As has been mentioned, in middle school the kids get calculators and never do arithmetic by hand again. That's terrible. I have no problem with students doing some problems by calculator and it can be an advantage to get some practice in using them effectively. It could mean getting to see some real-world problems in which all the answers don't come out nicely to integers between 0 and 50. <b>But</b> they must continue to do problems by hand as well. Doing problems by hand gives them practice in estimating and spotting wrong answers.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16260807460417787614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-79753286968571419832012-06-21T12:43:09.567-07:002012-06-21T12:43:09.567-07:00Ophelie,
The teach for america folks only get a...Ophelie,<br /> The teach for america folks only get a few weeks of "training" before they are thrown into the classroom (this is easy to confirm). There is NO indication that there is a lack of qualified teachers for the positions the TFA applicants are taking...in fact, here in Seattle each open position is getting dozens of applications from experienced, qualified teachers with real teaching degrees.<br /><br />TFA is really a being sold as a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Most TFA folks do not stay in teaching. I would be VERY worried if my child had a TFA novice leading their class....cliffCliff Mass Weather Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13948649423540350788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-353783191902123602012-06-21T11:01:28.608-07:002012-06-21T11:01:28.608-07:00Oh, and another thing. I just finished reading Sea...Oh, and another thing. I just finished reading Seattle Times article about Mercer School, and all "new" things they implemented sound very similar to what we had in schools in Japan, down to home visits by teachers. I guess that's what works.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com