tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post2651477417528110992..comments2024-03-28T10:16:44.231-07:00Comments on Cliff Mass Weather Blog: UW Admissions and Failing K-12 EducationCliff Mass Weather Bloghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13948649423540350788noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-74080602328194368792012-01-28T17:37:18.883-08:002012-01-28T17:37:18.883-08:00Um, folks, "It's the economy {xxx}",...Um, folks, "It's the economy {xxx}", or at least a big part of it is.<br /><br />WildernessFactory, UW used to waive out-of-state tuition for grad students. This practice has been discontinued this year, and seems likely to dramatically affect graduate enrollment. I could probably not have afforded my post-professional masters if I had had to pay out-of-state tuition.<br /><br />The state lege has a lot to answer for.Raven Onthillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06634556869209594389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-37428660339757483022012-01-26T18:02:19.767-08:002012-01-26T18:02:19.767-08:00I have know people who have been at the receiving ...I have know people who have been at the receiving end of one of the ST's investigative journalists; I hate to say it, but I believe the ST hires out of that 10% that shouldn't be at UW. I have never been an actual bystander to such sloppy or slanted investigative journalism, and having grown up in the other Washington, that's saying something. Thank you for setting the record straight with respect to UW's admissions policies. But why do you think that 10-15% isn't filtered out?Crazyislandmomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08935322601703344160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-14351488419040345822012-01-26T13:51:08.735-08:002012-01-26T13:51:08.735-08:00Cliff, has it changed that much? I remember Prof. ...Cliff, has it changed that much? I remember Prof. Leon Slutzky in Chem140 trying to explain pH, when he had to back-track to teach logarithms. That would have been 1971-- 40 years ago. The freshman calculus classes had about 1/3 to 1/2 drop rates.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14818979024131339228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-58255214066750836262012-01-26T09:44:46.949-08:002012-01-26T09:44:46.949-08:00Why do we educate poorly?
Because we have to cate...Why do we educate poorly?<br /><br />Because we have to cater to the lowest common denominator. We aren't allowed to leave anyone behind, and the P.C. way to accomplish that is to put all the resources on the laggards, rather than on those with higher potential.<br /><br />But your solutions suggest perhaps you wouldn't do so well as a student either. You rail against "unproven" methods, but your definition is questionable. Charter Schools do work. So do parochial. But they aren't unionized, and therefore the unions will never accept any amount of evidence as "proof." Further, the unions also won't allow performance-based pay, and therefore prevent any attempts to gather evidence.<br /><br />And that suggests another failing in your logic-circuits. If we can't measure and reward performance (and let's be clear - as long as the union is involved, we can't - at least not in an effective way), we will never know if we have good teachers or not. Paying more won't get us better teachers, but will reduce the turn-over of bad ones. And perhaps good ones, but if the bad aren't leaving, they can't be replaced.<br /><br />To really solve the K-12 problem, you must allow failure. Reward both good students and good teachers. Penalize the poor of each. Yes, even if the penalized are disproportionately poor and/or black. But those last five words are the problem, especially on the left, and ensure we can never solve this.Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01714606824444953203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-65456937360926590962012-01-26T07:57:20.812-08:002012-01-26T07:57:20.812-08:00My heart breaks for the commenters who talk about ...My heart breaks for the commenters who talk about doors being closed to them because of their K-12 education. My child is now a junior and I see how deficient the preparation has been in some areas, and can only hope we can make it up. Our current solution is to take summer classes at the UW...goingforthegoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06294587638347219567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-13882917211260524322012-01-25T21:24:26.124-08:002012-01-25T21:24:26.124-08:00I'd go to UW, in fact I tried, unfortunately W...I'd go to UW, in fact I tried, unfortunately Washington state residency laws are absurd and make it impossible to move from out of state and ever get in state tuition unless you work full-time with minimal credits for a year, and even then they try and f you.WildernessFactoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15272513257533219366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-74370075121129171802012-01-25T13:53:54.778-08:002012-01-25T13:53:54.778-08:00"Vouchers"? You mean "coupons"..."Vouchers"? You mean "coupons" and everybody knows what those are, a discount for something.<br /><br />www.gregpalast.com/no-childs-behind-left/<br /><br />Did a great analysis of this bait/switch plan.GaryP.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16946775119505539856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-39252509393241329312012-01-25T10:32:17.894-08:002012-01-25T10:32:17.894-08:00And even a huge percentage of the Americans are of...And even a huge percentage of the Americans are of East Asian background. Look at the University of California system. When they take race out of the question, then it fills up with East Asians. That should tell you something. So stop whining.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17962740466403728248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-78083763735270431572012-01-25T09:04:32.032-08:002012-01-25T09:04:32.032-08:00Colleen@8:28pm
Maybe as a rain-lover, UW person, ...Colleen@8:28pm<br /><br />Maybe as a rain-lover, UW person, ATG denizen, and father of a high-schooler, I'm not representative, but I'd prefer one Mass-ive blog with all topics.<br /><br />The titles are sufficiently descriptive so I don't waste time reading material of little interest at the moment, and tracking multiple blogs would be more trouble.John Vidalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871768524749705799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-66699447473936610612012-01-24T20:28:11.148-08:002012-01-24T20:28:11.148-08:00Cliff, how about a separate blog for your educatio...Cliff, how about a separate blog for your education-related posts, which are understandably heartfelt and manifold? Alternatively, remove the word "weather" from this blog name.Colleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04850024758134899093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-1404104558036104272012-01-24T17:19:41.457-08:002012-01-24T17:19:41.457-08:00I didn't read ALL the comments, so forgive me ...I didn't read ALL the comments, so forgive me if I am repeating someone else's assertions...<br /><br />The problem with our inferior math teaching starts at the elementary level. Many (not all), but MANY elementary teachers are not fond of math, are not good at math, and are actually afraid of math. (I have spoken to quite a few in my district and they will openly admit to all of the above. I doubt any district in WA would differ much.) These people rely on inferior textbooks to help them get through the math part of their day. There is no love for math, nor is there a deep understanding that leads to proper modeling of the concepts for the students.<br /><br />So, when I inherit the students in middle school, their skills are DISMAL at best. They barely know their multiplication facts, let alone what to do with (gasp!) FRACTIONS.<br /><br />I've been doing this for 24 years. I wish that kids would not get promoted out of elementary school until they can prove they are proficient at the current Washington State Standards for elementary. (The good standards, not the crappy Common Core that will lower us even further to the level of really sad states- like Mississippi.) The problem is that their earliest teachers are not proficient. By 6th grade, there is a lot of catch-up to do...<br /><br />Countries that are above us in math scores have already figured out that you can't train just anyone to be a teacher. They pick and choose carefully- even going so far as to give aptitude tests to potential teachers BEFORE they let them take teacher training courses in college. <br /><br />Read this study- you will weep at the time and potential we have lost in this country because we will let just about anyone become a teacher.<br /><br />http://mckinseyonsociety.com/how-the-worlds-best-performing-schools-come-out-on-top/<br /><br />It's lengthy, but it hits the nail on the head.snapdragonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10052978249380402838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-10062685727855082912012-01-24T17:18:06.905-08:002012-01-24T17:18:06.905-08:00WhidbeyIslandTime:
We do need to value education ...WhidbeyIslandTime:<br /><br />We do need to value education and teachers more. But higher pay must come with strings attached just as it does at Microsoft. If we did away with blanket pay scales based on seniority and instead tied pay to performance there would be a lot more pay for the good teachers and a lot less pay for the bad teachers and the bad teachers would self select out of education. And we need to devalue administration just as private corporations pay less for clerical work and other overhead positions and more to those who directly contribute to the products and services.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02059221822159483655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-31545909384551195912012-01-24T17:12:39.159-08:002012-01-24T17:12:39.159-08:00It is a complex problem. But the major factors ar...It is a complex problem. But the major factors are a lack of competition and merit in schools with teachers and at the student level in primary and secondary schooling in WA. <br /><br />We should try vouchers while simultaneously tying teacher pay to merit and doing away with seniority, tenure, and unions. If teachers had to compete as hard as Microsoft employees and perspective Microsoft employees do, we would get a lot higher quality of education. Especially if we tied pay and continued employment to performance and rating by peers, parents and students. What's this can't be fired nonsense?<br /><br />And we should get rid of curricula handed down by the NEA and their textbook cronies. Old curricula from decades ago produced many a great American engineer. Why did we have to reinvent curricula for diversity and all of the other NEA new math and other garbage when we had great results oriented curricula years ago?<br /><br />We could also probably cut back on much of the administrative overhead at the large central administration buildings. We did fine in the past when schools were more decentralized and a small administrative staff handled the whole school as it is in many private schools today. <br /><br />Streamline, add accountability, and remove the layers that protect and reward incompetence. It's pretty basic. But I don't expect any of our entrenched and overpaid bureaucrats to make any changes at all, nor Olympia Democrats who've grown accustomed to all of these reliable vote blocks. <br /><br />WA gets the schooling it deserves given the leadership it has elected.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02059221822159483655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-19502881757580462822012-01-24T16:14:04.550-08:002012-01-24T16:14:04.550-08:00I will leave the essay writing to the others who h...I will leave the essay writing to the others who have more time to invest in their responses. I only have one point to make:<br /><br />Teaching and education are not valued in America. K-12 teachers are the most undervalued and underpaid workers in America. Until we see the true value of educated adults teaching our youth we will have the problems you have all described. <br /><br />One thing will always be true in the United States: YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.<br /><br />We need higher paid salaries for teachers to attact higher quality candidates. I myself would be interested in teaching but could never leave my engineering job for a teachers salary.WhidbeyIslandTimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02965542694789615627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-90875277622031095132012-01-24T15:59:51.303-08:002012-01-24T15:59:51.303-08:00I am looking forward your concrete suggestions. Br...I am looking forward your concrete suggestions. Bring 'em on! I want to be armed with actionable steps I can take in my local school district where I am a mom/volunteer.<br /><br />I have a child in 2nd grade. My undergraduate is in engineering. I feel like a "fish out of water" when it comes to the education system and educators. <br /><br />I appreciate your stance and efforts on this.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09604001834669582244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-3940480098428979452012-01-24T15:52:30.132-08:002012-01-24T15:52:30.132-08:00The other unspoken issue is that the crime rate ar...The other unspoken issue is that the crime rate around the UW has gotten totally out of hand. Armed Robbery on campus. Armed Robbery in the cafeteria along campus.. snatch and grab's of iphones, laptops etc. Why send your kid to a school where they have a good chance of seeing up close and personal the local criminal element?GaryP.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16946775119505539856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-42241638595256941732012-01-24T14:56:00.587-08:002012-01-24T14:56:00.587-08:00With 2 kids in SPS elementary schools, I see a fai...With 2 kids in SPS elementary schools, I see a fair number of kids moving up year-to-year without mastering math skills. They don't have the foundation for the next level, and each year, they get further behind, more convinced that they hate math and aren't ever going to be good at it.<br /><br />With reading, a 2nd grade teacher can direct kids to "just right" books, books that are challenging but not frustrating, so that they can build skills and proficiency. But in math, they are all doing the same work, with some kids bored and not learning any good study skills b/c it is too easy, and some like those above who are only "learning" to hate math. <br /><br />I'd like to see a skills-based math program, where kid are divided not by class or age, but by skill, and freely moved up as they master skills. They could get instruction and practice at their level, then move up. <br /><br />A mastery of Algebra makes Calculus easy. A mastery of division, multiplication, fractions and decimals makes Algebra easy. Mastering basic arithmetic skills is the foundation for everything. <br /><br />I think that mastering a skill then building on it makes so much more sense than "spiraling".JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04468804997899691333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-1825271898551666452012-01-24T13:52:45.766-08:002012-01-24T13:52:45.766-08:00Some day commenters might learn that few of us rea...Some day commenters might learn that few of us reading the comments believe parents are objective about their kids, primarily because parents rarely are. I know I am not.<br /><br />And @ Elliot, I see no contradiction between Cliff claiming (1) that very good Washington state students are usually admitted and (2) there is a fair share of students at UW who are not ready to take advantage of the UW coursework.<br /><br />The two actually argue in the same direction - perhaps in-state admissions are fair but too lenient, and more people from the rest of the country and world should be admitted rather than in-state applicants. Especially as it would lighten the tax load on the state tax payers, who seem eager to shed as much of the cost as possible, and it would bring fresh talent to the region.John Vidalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09871768524749705799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-59601958523936663882012-01-24T13:41:55.879-08:002012-01-24T13:41:55.879-08:00Several of you have noted that your children were ...Several of you have noted that your children were rejected yet did very well at other institutions and in the work world. The UW admissions project is certainly not perfect, and I am sure there have been some errors...particularly when you are examining many thousands of applications. There are students with middling GPAs (3-3.5) in high school that become serious in college and go on to do great things. That is wonderful and depth of colleges in the U.S. allows this to happen. But the statistics on UW admissions are public knowledge and students with high GPAs and board scores are being accepted. This is all separate from the other issue of my note: that a significant number of students come here unprepared for college-level work, particularly in technical subjects.Cliff Mass Weather Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13948649423540350788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-2786258156909225442012-01-24T13:15:49.439-08:002012-01-24T13:15:49.439-08:00Thank you Cliff, for bringing awareness to this is...Thank you Cliff, for bringing awareness to this issue. Some big changes need to be taking place in our country. I have heard bits and pieces about the dumbing down of America. What you are talking about here sure fits that description.Anniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08314007864011304098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-75957130425194297182012-01-24T12:58:57.092-08:002012-01-24T12:58:57.092-08:00"UW does not reject strong students"
Ba..."UW does not reject strong students"<br /><br />Based on first hand experience this is total BS. My son's story:<br />- UW rejected his application because coming from a very strong high-school his GPA was supposedly not high enough.<br />- His SAT score was very high.<br />- He's now in his junior year in an out of state engineering college, doing fine TYWM<br />- Starting in high-school(!) by now he's completed 4 summer internships as software developer at Boeing, Corbis, 2x Microsoft<br />- He already has job offers waiting for him from two of those companies when he graduates more than a year from now.<br />- In high-school he was also an athlete (Junior Olympics, 2nd place)<br /><br />UW has weak students because the acceptance process/policy is deeply flawed.WA parenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00527096994573448041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-34743365546873884592012-01-24T12:55:52.094-08:002012-01-24T12:55:52.094-08:00After all the assurance they got as kids that they...After all the assurance they got as kids that they were "special" just the way they were, after all the "participant trophies" for sports, and the care taken to celebrate-absolutely-everyone, it must be quite a shock to discover that the rest of the world doesn't spin that way.Estoy Listohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05507621406355585331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-61697754625274152212012-01-24T12:48:23.754-08:002012-01-24T12:48:23.754-08:00My son was class President and had a 3.75 GPA and ...My son was class President and had a 3.75 GPA and he was flat out rejected. No wait list. He went to nice private high school with tough academic standards. He took honor courses.Its a shame that those parents of deserving students, and those parents who help to "fund" this local institution are automatically locked out. They should have preference, not the other way. My older son applied too. He had a higher GPA, over 3.9. He got a B in Japanese his Freshman year. Again, same thing. He ended graduating top of his class, Magna Cum Laude from Cal-Poly. He was published as a lead author, and is getting his Doctorate now. UW couldn't even see that...maybe they should spend more money on recruiting assistant football coaches.78tornadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18365258822044249147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-60689581902421614592012-01-24T11:52:50.107-08:002012-01-24T11:52:50.107-08:00"The truth is that the UW does not reject str..."The truth is that the UW does not reject strong students: those with a combination of good grades, high board scores, challenging classes, and good recommendations (honor applicants only). Straight A students with lower board scores, easy classes, or other negatives may be rejected, but that is to be expected at the State's flagship school and one of the top 20 universities in the world according to some evaluations. In a day of extreme grade inflation, an A average does not mean what it used to be. The average GPA of incoming UW freshman is A-."<br /><br />"Let me be frank, there are quite a few UW students who don't belong here. Whose seats would be better filled with out-of-state students. It is distressing to admit, that a good number of UW freshmen (perhaps the lower 10-15%) do not have college-level skills. They can't do basic algebra or middle school math (many can't even do long division or fractions). Their spelling and writing are atrocious--unable to write coherent sentences. Their student habits are deficient, including poor attendance and note taking. They have poor research skills and have difficulty working independently. Some have poor attitudes and clearly would rather be some place else."<br /><br />I'm having a lot of trouble reading these two paragraphs next to each one. In one you basically assert that only the creme of the crop, the elite, get into UW, while merely "great" students may be rejected. In the next you say over ten percent of the students are unqualified to be there. Care to reconcile these two statements?Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14976548582881807785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-17598587161185359842012-01-24T11:31:25.696-08:002012-01-24T11:31:25.696-08:00Cliff, I agree with your recommendations.
I am sk...Cliff, I agree with your recommendations.<br /><br />I am skeptical, though, that articles in the Times and other news sources are responsible for decline in applications. All the state colleges' tuition has gone up a lot, but UW's has gone up the most. Students may not see UW giving them that much more than much cheaper other schools. Or they may think that private schools are not that much more once their better financial aid is considered.<br /><br />A Progressive Crank, this country sent men to the moon, but we couldn't have done it without Wernher von Braun and his team.<br /><br />K-12 science and math teaching pays poorly compared to what someone with a master's degree could be making in industry. Thus, the best college science and math students don't even consider K-12 teaching as a career. Or consider college-level careers in schools of education. That lack of good science and math people in schools of education makes education as a field vulnerable to fads that are put into practice before without benefit of thorough review.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16260807460417787614noreply@blogger.com