tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post3186632280346464526..comments2024-03-28T10:16:44.231-07:00Comments on Cliff Mass Weather Blog: Why Outside Air is Safe and Park Closures Should EndCliff Mass Weather Bloghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13948649423540350788noreply@blogger.comBlogger100125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-64213802096800447032020-09-22T04:35:25.651-07:002020-09-22T04:35:25.651-07:00I really enjoyed this post. You describe this topi...I really enjoyed this post. You describe this topic very well. I really enjoy reading your blog and I will definitely bookmark it! Keep up the interesting posts! Thanks for sharing informative blog.jenniFerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01096295278465913957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-15651595811241593122020-04-25T13:38:55.076-07:002020-04-25T13:38:55.076-07:00Seattle parks are one thing, but you kissed the bi...Seattle parks are one thing, but you kissed the big picture on state parks and campgrounds. The little towns that surround them don't have the resources or supplies for an influx of people right now. The little town near my vacation place had their grocery store inundated and cleaned out by out-of-towners. They don't have healthcare resources to spare and can't afford to have their (mostly volunteer) first responders quarantined. Open up city parks, but don't let people pack in shoulder to shoulder like they were. And stick close to home.Rrrnayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18216271967464113714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-30030934702367717172020-04-24T10:03:02.974-07:002020-04-24T10:03:02.974-07:00Than you! Great science and sense.Than you! Great science and sense.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00333097959528717246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-12482548143447285982020-04-23T08:37:28.280-07:002020-04-23T08:37:28.280-07:00I have to respectfully disagree with you, Cliff th...I have to respectfully disagree with you, Cliff this time. Any movement out of one's house increases the risk of injury that might require medical attention and to be treated by health care workers, many in distress, and with limited resources. Opening the parks would no doubt increase the number of people driving on highways and highway fatalities are the #1 reason for mortality among young adults. Rural highways, often used to access hiking trails, are the most dangerous statistically. Why would we want to increase patient loads in hospitals especially rural ones at this time? Second, I don't see any of the commenters above who want to open the parks to volunteer to clean the bathrooms, pick up the trash, provide first-aid or otherwise maintain the facilities and supervise social distancing. How about the workers who would have to clean up every day? Their and their families' health and exposure do not matter?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06428341813660979954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-52031675436078720092020-04-23T02:12:07.509-07:002020-04-23T02:12:07.509-07:00Economic privation and social isolation kill just ...Economic privation and social isolation kill just as surely as the virus. We haven't crossed that tipping point yet where the former is more deadly than the latter, but one can see it in the dustance from here. One thing I'm pretty sure about is this will be a one-time event simply because people won't tolerate a second round of shutdowns. We had better get our test-and-trace capabilities up to par because they're going to be the only politically, economically, and socially viable response to any future COVID-19 outbreaks. Foohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03929520923930532337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-82745612061365658862020-04-22T21:03:54.535-07:002020-04-22T21:03:54.535-07:00Agreed.Agreed.Dion Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05413543353353174264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-62001314831656864802020-04-22T11:40:51.460-07:002020-04-22T11:40:51.460-07:00A German study shows that the incidence of mortali...A German study shows that the incidence of mortality for COVID-19 is 0.4%<br /><br />https://reason.com/2020/04/09/preliminary-german-study-shows-a-covid-19-infection-fatality-rate-of-about-0-4-percent/#comments<br /><br />The study concludes:<br /><br />"[The German researchers] believe these findings show that lockdowns can begin to be lifted, as long as people maintain high levels of hygiene to keep COVID-19 under control".<br /><br />Just wash your hands!EuropeanManhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16989032380024260304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-21250442348518700142020-04-22T09:12:36.245-07:002020-04-22T09:12:36.245-07:00Not if you're close to and downwind from someo...Not if you're close to and downwind from someone who happens to be infected and is huffing and puffing. Nope, not safe.* Droplets and aerosols--avoid them. Also: wash your hands, sanitize your purchases, wear a mask if you're going to be around people (grocery store; clinic; that's about it), and stay home--it's saving lives. When we're getting to the tapering end of that ski run that is the oft-mentioned "curve," we might consider returning to a semblance of normal. My answer to how long I'm going to "self-quarantine," (I say "be sequestered"): until there's a treatment that works (not hydroxyTrumpOquine) and/or a vaccine is shown to be effective and I've received it. Period. *I'm editing this after having read Cliff Mass' argument. I totally agree that outside air is much safer than inside air when it comes to virus transmission. I have advocated for people to "get outside" into the fresh air, exercise, smell the roses from the beginning of this pandemic. It isn't so much that being "around" other people outside is unsafe, but it's a matter of what people do when they're outside. The natural tendency is to congregate. Sadly, not everyone gets it that you cannot proceed with normal behaviors just because you're outdoors. The risk does NOT drop to zero. Thus: rules, closures, recommendations. So, in this case, it has more to do with human behavior rather than science-supported viral behavior. Both must be taken into account. www.sandyrock.com RiskDochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17516294242532944296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-45340755063741931162020-04-22T07:30:44.428-07:002020-04-22T07:30:44.428-07:00I don't think anyone disputes the positive val...I don't think anyone disputes the positive values of being outside or the diminished risk of contracting or spreading the virus outdoors. Two points, though. The risk is lessened outside, but the risk of contagion in crowds persist. Pack a beach, park or trail system and at some point the ability to maintain social distancing, or that sufficient for the "magic" of UV rays and tendency for aerosolized particles to dissipate are compromised. The risk for spreading or contracting the virus is further increased by congregating people at various "choke points," like stores or other vendors adjacent these outdoor areas. I'd love to travel to a national park or my favorite river to fish, but hesitate knowing that I could serve as a vector of transmission from an area of high COVID occurrence to one of relatively low incidents. Finally, your point that sick people don't run completely misses the point that an individual can be asymptomatic and still spread the virus - I'm surprised you missed this critical point as it has been widely discussed both in the literature and media. In sum, yes, let's make reasoned, empirically based decisions as you suggest, but please, let's do so with all the facts at hand. Dr. Steelheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05642638579858315218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-10230697115736373812020-04-22T04:38:56.428-07:002020-04-22T04:38:56.428-07:00Here's a spreadsheet (WA-only) that I've p...Here's a spreadsheet (WA-only) that I've produced which auto-imports John Hopkin's COVID-19 data. It shows that COVID-19 (so far) is a non-event in so many places in our region. For that reason alone, we should be opening up.<br /><br /><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EztQ69s80ATZj64WVOEx4eezYAWTKp2nppyHOyUEY58/edit#gid=1157182735" rel="nofollow">https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EztQ69s80ATZj64WVOEx4eezYAWTKp2nppyHOyUEY58/edit#gid=1157182735</a><br /><br />It's so silly to see all the closures in our area (N. Peninsula). When fear takes over commonsense dies. Studies have shown that just walking in the forest increases natural killer cells in the body:<br /><br /><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgDjVEpEOdQ" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgDjVEpEOdQ</a><br /><br />Dave Zhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13884120637482331672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-43095377405059588152020-04-22T01:24:16.280-07:002020-04-22T01:24:16.280-07:00Some people drive cars irresponsibly... lets ban c...Some people drive cars irresponsibly... lets ban cars. Some people drink irresponsibly... lets ban drinking. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13718208783728156193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-71714291639461576562020-04-21T21:54:00.880-07:002020-04-21T21:54:00.880-07:00Here in B.C. a few parks remain open at this time....Here in B.C. a few parks remain open at this time. They’ve taken proper precautions like closing off picnic tables, benches, even urinals or hand dryers, replacing the driers with paper towels. One way trails and signs with extra park patrols. Gates<br />are fixed open and gathering spots are closed with orange “snow fencing” and again more signs. We can do this people....behave and reopen most parks.<br />Thank you Cliff for stating the facts and speaking the truth. Peace.Patrick Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05752793491361489728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-71386165843334022422020-04-21T19:11:32.310-07:002020-04-21T19:11:32.310-07:00I completely agree storm1.as a die hard fisherman ...I completely agree storm1.as a die hard fisherman i am not allowed to go out on a lake or the sound and be a minimum of 300 yards away from another boat is absolutely absurd. You are correct about there being more protests.people are getting restless.Ironworker1994https://www.blogger.com/profile/14558080439495709105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-39599421076372974962020-04-21T15:34:33.890-07:002020-04-21T15:34:33.890-07:00Responsible social distancing in parks = enjoyment...Responsible social distancing in parks = enjoyment for all<br /><br />Overcrowding, or irresponsible social distancing in parks (e.g. sweaty pickup basketball games) = punishment for all. Out here on Whidbey, it is the later that caused many parks on the southend to be closed... Your science may be spot on Cliff, but the assumption of human stupidity from a very few not being a factor is not (just think of what would happen if a supper spreader emerged in any of these parks... or if situations like the Mount Vernon Choir group repeated itself - these are the events we are trying to minimize)pnwbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08467858304695414068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-73070611657254277072020-04-21T14:04:27.659-07:002020-04-21T14:04:27.659-07:00the problem I have right now is the lack of open b...the problem I have right now is the lack of open bathrooms in parks. No place to go means short visits, or no visits if it takes a while to get someplace. I suspect that a lot of the reason why many parks and beaches are closed is that need to eliminate the use of restrooms.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03650556309006432058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-36507399823099246352020-04-21T13:47:07.964-07:002020-04-21T13:47:07.964-07:00Those fishermen have to feed their families, and u...Those fishermen have to feed their families, and us. It may not always be possible to have a lower number of fishermen on a boat. The mortality rate of this virus is low. When we go to the grocery store and the shelves are empty, maybe we will open our eyes.EuropeanManhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16989032380024260304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-82987804434468267262020-04-21T09:22:24.390-07:002020-04-21T09:22:24.390-07:00Part of the reason why people are panicking is our...Part of the reason why people are panicking is our leaders our panicing. Our leaders could set a good example by listening to the scientists and allowing people to do safe activities. This more rational response would help quell the publics fear. Storm1https://www.blogger.com/profile/15032533387012414371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-55314191652008901092020-04-21T09:20:35.226-07:002020-04-21T09:20:35.226-07:00The ticket everyone on the overcrowded boats, don&...The ticket everyone on the overcrowded boats, don't punish everyone for the minorities rule breaking. Also kind in mind that family members are going to be in close proximity no matter what, they have to live together so trying to separate them is kind of pointless. Storm1https://www.blogger.com/profile/15032533387012414371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-9445728246579172152020-04-21T09:16:33.552-07:002020-04-21T09:16:33.552-07:00Most people realize restrooms are not open and wil...Most people realize restrooms are not open and will keep their hikes short. Most people can do a short hike without needing to use the restroom. How hard is it to use the restroom before you leave you're house? On rare occasions someone doing a longer hike in the national forest/wilderness area needs to use a restroom there are plenty of trees/bushes. There are so few of these long distance hikers and so many trees/bushes in the wilderness it won't have a noticeable effect. Long distance hikers have had to do this for decades and no one has complained. Storm1https://www.blogger.com/profile/15032533387012414371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-1181102577671092792020-04-21T09:10:00.517-07:002020-04-21T09:10:00.517-07:00Cliff, you should run for governor!Cliff, you should run for governor!jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11074848596330521566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-21286781518596077212020-04-21T07:58:10.979-07:002020-04-21T07:58:10.979-07:00I'm with Cliff on this mostly. The jungle gym...I'm with Cliff on this mostly. The jungle gyms have had to be closed even when the parks are open, understandably. The other problem, hardly mentioned in the discussion or the comments, is the need for restrooms, and the inevitable contact with droplets, etc., that occur there, and the need to maintain them. So I kind of understand why closures may have to happen in some parks.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15926716843892177088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-87896065873940062732020-04-21T07:37:04.637-07:002020-04-21T07:37:04.637-07:00👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻Marniferoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12632198010145865458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-87290860704952049552020-04-21T06:49:06.537-07:002020-04-21T06:49:06.537-07:00stay at home orders mean stay at home- sorry Cliff...stay at home orders mean stay at home- sorry Cliff, but because of all the travel and exchange happening to get to and from parks, and the need to keep our healthcare system from being overrun, stay at home, please! Leafhopper https://www.blogger.com/profile/01598898955081798138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-57027314840598322942020-04-20T23:45:16.647-07:002020-04-20T23:45:16.647-07:00Fishing...
Fishermen in Washington State did not r...Fishing...<br />Fishermen in Washington State did not remotely practice responsible "social distancing" rules.<br />They were loading 4, 5 & 6 fishermen in some boats, including fishing guides.<br />Fishermen were congregating at busy boat ramps in each others faces like nothing was going on.<br />Fishermen were sitting elbow to elbow in areas on rivers and lakes.<br />And something none of you've talked about which pertains to others other than fishermen..."carpooling".<br />Groups of people getting together for some of these "outdoor" outings are not going to drive 4 separate rigs to a river or lake an hour away or so.<br />So you stuff 4 guys into the front of a pickup truck and drive to & fro...good way for somebody(s) to get infected...and nobody knows for sure if they or others are infected and contagious.<br /><br />These same issues took place in Oregon as well and got some popular fishing areas shut down...such as Meldrum Bar in the Oregon City area on the Willamette.Borntobewildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07093707336439559171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7478606652950905956.post-89845887119683654202020-04-20T21:59:32.974-07:002020-04-20T21:59:32.974-07:00Most of the reactions I have seen related to can b...Most of the reactions I have seen related to can be broken down into 2 categories: fight or flight.<br /><br />Some of our elected leaders and highly qualified experts in their fields have reacted with fear. Closing of parks and other open areas where we go to get away from the rat race and more specifically each other, is part of that fear response.<br /><br />Leaders in other areas of the country have reacted differently. For example, the national forests, monuments and grasslands in the USFS Rocky Mountain region are not completely closed like they are in the PNW region. They have limits on the number of people allowed to be together in one place. Some are 10 people while others are 2 but still are open and perfectly suited to doing the one thing I believe we all can agree is right: stay away from each other.<br /><br />It is time for our local elected and appointed leaders to stop responding to fear. It's time reopen the places where we can practice social distancing instead of allowing/encouraging us to frequent those places where we cannot.<br /><br />They were elected/appointed to govern not rule.Dion Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05413543353353174264noreply@blogger.com