January 06, 2024

The Five-Day Rule for Weather Prediction

When I write this blog, I generally follow a " Five-Day Rule of Weather Prediction" and so should you.

Here is the rule:

Predictions of severe or exciting weather for more than five days out should be considered with caution.   Be VERY careful of hyping forecasts for longer periods.   Be aware of the uncertainty of big events predicted at longer lead times.

I have noticed that some media and popular local amateur sites (on YouTube, X, and other media) regularly break the five-day rule, often hyping events that often never occur.  

Crying wolf like that is not a good thing.


Several local outlets have gone for a major snow/cold event over the Washington lowlands this week (Wednesday through Friday), which is becoming increasingly doubtful.

Why a five-day rule?

I know... picking a certain period (five days) certainly has an arbitrary aspect to it, but there is some good data to support such a period.

Below are the statistics of skill over time (for 2022)  of the National Weather Service's main model (GFS), as well as the ensemble average of collections of many forecasts (GEFS and NAEFS) over the Northern Hemisphere.     A value of 1 is a perfect forecast.  

The skill during the first three days of the GFS model (blue color) is excellent (0.95 for more).   Forecast skill declines for days 4-5 but is still high.   But skill really starts to slide between days 6-8.


Sometimes forecast skill declines more rapidly than five days.

Consider a very powerful storm that will move across southern BC on Tuesday.

The 72-hour forecast (and one before that) has a strong low crossing the northern tip of Vancouver Island at 4 AM Friday.


The 120 h (5-day) forecast for the same time had TWO weak lows.


And the 180-hour forecast (7.5 days) has NO low centers within the domain.


Major deterioration of forecast skill over time.

The long-period forecast skill for snow events is even lower than for low centers or other single features because getting snow over western Washington requires getting many unusual features correct at exactly the same time.

So what do we do?

Sometimes the forecasts go bad at 3-4 days and sometimes they are good for 7-10 days.

How can meteorologists tell what situation we are dealing with?  

The most powerful tool is the use of ensembles of many forecasts, each starting slightly differently or with differing model "physics."    If these variations all produce a similar prediction, our forecast confidence is enhanced.  And vice versa.

Let me show you an example....and also reveal some meteorological "dirty laundry,:

Below are temperatures from the NOAA GFS ensemble (called GEFS) for surface air temperatures at SeaTac Airport out 8 days.  The forecasts all started this morning at 4 AM. Each gray line is a different forecast.  The blue line is the single high-resolution GFS forecast and the black line is the average of the ensemble of forecasts.

For the first few days, all the forecasts are on the same page.   You can have confidence in those short-term predictions.

Then the forecasts start to diverge a bit, but only differ by a few degrees.


But then starting around January 12th the forecasts radically vary, with temperatures from near 0F to 45F.

Obviously, confidence in the forecast at this time has gone into the dumps.  And the cooler temperatures are crazy and unphysical, representing a serious flaw in the National Weather Service's main model (the dirty laundry).

Enjoy the windstorm....and the serious snow in the mountains.


19 comments:

  1. The models seem like they're going crazy trying figure out next weekend.

    I had seen ensembles posted periodically elsewhere, and had been impressed how suddenly they diverge around Jan 12. It seems like of the last 2-3 days, that divergence hasn't gotten better as the time gets closer.

    Not to mention, yesterday morning, the UW GFS maps showed my location would have a Friday low of around 4 degrees F! That's as extraordinary for my location as the 2021 record high temperature.

    Yet on the very next run, it showed an unremarkable forecast low of 30 degrees. It's bouncing all over the place.

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  2. "I have noticed that some media and popular local amateur sites (on YouTube, X, and other media) regularly break the five-day rule, often hyping events that often never occur. " Can you be specific on what type of language is considered hyping? like is "something to watch" or "fantasy" considered hyping?

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    1. To take just one example, look up "Pacific NW Weather Watch" on youtube. He started out doing some decent work, but has recently gone way overboard on hyping things that never occurred. Another one is "Ponder on Weather."

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    2. Eric, Do you still watch "Pacific NW Weather Watch" ? or do you avoid it? What is your favorite source for forecast information? I watch PNW weather watch, and he has reported on several events that have occurred that Seatac and NWS ignored. He also repeatedly states if something is pure fantasy before and after looking at all forecasts more than 5 days out. He has not gone way overboard at all in my opinion.

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    3. I've stopped watching his site with any regularity, but he has come on here and taken issue with Cliff's contrarian takes on his broadcasts (he's quite defensive about any criticism of his work). Given a choice between the two I'll gladly take Cliff's perspective, every time. I don't pay any attention to the other sites you mentioned, because I live in Portland, Oregon - which you might've known if you were a regular visitor to this blog.

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    4. BTW, I also listen to Rod Hill's forecasts, both on KGW (in Portland) and also on his YouTube channel. He's the only local forecaster here that called attention to the developing El Nino cycle (as did Cliff), and has consistently incorporated that reality into his daily forecasts. The others just avoid it for the most part, and instead focus on AGW.

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  3. Good post; very instructive. I'm always somewhat surprised that so many wonder and earnestly ask (maybe even ache to know) "what kind of summer we'll be having" six months hence when predictions for the next six days (heck, even six hours) is in flux. There are oh-so-many variables and surprises in store for any given place and point, plus the swirling atmosphere that jackets this spinning top of a planet. There are times the word "weather" really might be spelled "whether" :)

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  4. So what you are saying is it was all wrong. No snow

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    1. I don't think that's what he's saying at all. I'm pretty sure he just said five days or more out, forecast accuracy wanes greatly. And he said the mountains are still going to get a ton of snow, which is right where it is needed. Lowland snow is not needed in any way, and while it may be pretty to look at, all it really does is cause problems.

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    1. Gus, not sure I'm following your point here. Cliff's data show that predictions made closer to the weekend (by definition, less than 5 days out) are in fact pretty reliable.

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  6. Thanks, Cliff. Appreciate your timely insights and all that you provide to us that the mainstream media doesn't.

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  7. The forecasts for snow in Snoqualmie have been all over the place. The Weather Underground forecast for the 12th has been for 9", 4", 5" and currently 6". Often the week-out and longer forecast is rain, rain and more rain, but the actual weather will be a combination of rain and clouds. The hour-by-hour forecasts change radically even a few hours ahead of time. A forecast of rain for 9 am made at 6 am turns into cloudy when 9 am arrives, as an example.

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  8. Some pity, please, for the poor news media. The Presidential campaign has gotten boring. The wars in Gaza and Ukraine have settled into a numbing sameness. What better to build clicks than ai impeding weather catastrophe? And, when the cold wave inevitably fizzles, they'll move onto another flavor of the week. Who knows, maybe there'll be a new strain of COVID?

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  9. Looks like very Active Weather Coming Up! It's been Exciting to watch all the social media posts And to get prepared. Even if nothing happens, I'm glad some forecasters are keeping us updated.

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  10. And now the models have flipped back to cold and snow and extended the cold spell to the middle of next week. It certainly is very tough to be a weather forecaster in these parts!

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  11. I'd better get my panic shopping done before the forecast changes again.

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  12. I started watching the forecasts for Wednesday through Saturday as soon as they appeared on the default weather app on my i-phone, and there was indeed considerable variation, which has become less and less....

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